How do you make money without selling out? That’s what Damon Dash — music producer, entrepreneur, co-founder of Roc-A-Fella Records, and contributor to memoir Culture Vultures — came to the studio to discuss with BigMike, Chris “Bulldog” Collins and host Jayme Foxx on this episode of Business Outlaws.

“I gave the culture a voice, I still fight for it, and I made ’em rich!” Dash says as he vents his frustrations with the music industry, millennial mindsets, what people imagine goes into building a successful business versus what really goes into it, and the “money guys” who prey on artists to profit off their talent. “A money guy buys shit,” he continues, “a good, cool motherfucker builds it.”

The conversation becomes heated when Damon accuses BigMike of working with the money guys and being a traitor to his industry. “It’s about me. I personally want to see how far I can climb that fucking ladder,” BigMike shoots back. When Damon asks BigMike to explain how he gauges his success, the conversation turns to figuring out what really matters, your role in relation to what you create, and ultimately, why you chose the path you’re on.

After you’ve finished listening, head on over to BusinessOutlaws.com for exclusive content and behind-the-scenes footage of BigMike, Chris, Jayme and Damon. And for even more Business Outlaws content, follow @BusinessOutlaws.